Hans Ulrich Obrist interviews Heri Dono in Helsinki, 1999

HUO
Considering the current political changes in Indonesia and Malaysia and artists' involvement with the political struggles, it is very interesting to see that art plays such an important role in society, while in Europe it has mostly become discourse, the discourse of political art. Art very seldom really matters politically. I have the impression that in Indonesia artists have taken a very important role in society. Can you tell me about Indonesia and in how far you see yourself as a political artist ?

HD
The subversion of art in most Asian countries means that there is no separation between life and art. Art is involved in culture, in social and political realms at the same time.

The terminology of perspective is like a mandala system. When I studied in art school, my professors taught me about the distance between myself and objects, especially in painting. However, if you look at the mandala system in Tibet or in the Borobodur Temple ... the architect tool of the 9th century, there is no distance between object and subject. The artists valued not only the concept of beauty but also to make people aware of what was happening. I disagree with certain New Yorkers who say that installation in Asian countires is cold potatoes ; I think this is mistaken because we have differerent manifestations about installations. Shigeru Ban and other architects in Japan made a project called " The Resurrection of Topos ". " The Resurrection of Topos " is that the installation is not only to display something in the space but also how the artists react to the space and create new meaning for the space. In addition, the concept and meaning of the art museum is not so stereotyped.

HUO
In Europe there has been a strong tendency in this century to regress to the museum of the 19th century, which creats a distance between the object and the subject. In the early 20th century you had theorists such as Alexander Dorner who proposed the idea of the museum as a laboratory, as a museum for art and life, the museum as a pioneer, to take risks - but at the end of the 20th century most of European museums are dead/bad. What I find very interesting is the potential in Asia to create new models for the museum. But at the same time, and Hou Hanru and I have often discussed this, there is a very real danger that Asia models its new museums according to the Western stereotype, and doesn't define a different model. This would be a very big lost opportunity. This is being discussed in Bangkok and Japan.

HD
I am also questioning the existence of the museums of Ethnology that have existed since the 18th century. This is the fruit of the colonial mentality, but even today in 1999, many Asian artists' work is exhibited in Museums of Ethnology, because they say modern art does not exist in Asian countries. In Switzerland and Holland I exhibited my work in Ethnology Museums. That artwork from contemporary Indonesian artists is still relegated to these Museums should be questioned. In 18th century Europe one did not believe that culture existed outside of Europe, so the concept was to build separate repositories for " primitive " culture. In Asian countries we must think carefully to avoid the stereotypes found in the U.S. and European countries.

HUO
What is your favourite existing museum ? What do you dream a museum could be?

HD
My dream is for a museum with humidity. In tropical countries, humidity is important for - for the land, for nature's recycling. Land depends on trees, without the roots of trees to hold it together, land becomes desert. Art is made with natural elements, a life museum. In Jogyakarta there is the Taman Sari museum, and there are many cultural activities including textile making. So, from the concept of the static museum building it embraces real life and becomes a new museum. When people visit Jogyakarta they see many activities : people cooking, selling products, making sculpture and textiles...

HUO
So it's basically an interdisciplinary place. A space between life and art.

HD
This is life, Maybe we can declare that it is art. In the next millennium we have to learn a lot. I think Cities on the Move's purpose is to collect a lot of questions, not to give answers, but to pose as many questions as possible about cites, about life... Also, the millennium is not a universal thing. In Java and Indonesia, according to our calendar, it is 1932 ; the calendar is different and a week has only five days. In Bali there are two different dates for celebrating the New Year… Contemporary artists in Indonesia are interested in making people aware of the political reality, that is why many artists use billboards as canvas ; art work is not only in the gallery - people can create the gallery. Demonstrations are also like having four walls on the road ; people create spontaneously. They resurrect the space.

HUO
In Asian cities there is a very spontaneous and direct access for artists in the city space. In a kamikaze kind of way they take over public spaces and make public art, but they don't wait for commissions, it just happens.

HD
Yes, it just happens. And also, movements is Asian cities such as Chiang Mai or Jakarta,

HUO
Nawin Rawanchaikul is involved in this public scultpure festival in Chiang Mai ...

HD
Like in Bali, some villages have become international communication centers. They have different capitals, like metropolitan cites. I can say they are regional and international at the same time, without comparing to Paris or New York. Paris is different than New York. In Paris, every corner is like a village, in New York more like a block. In Bali, many artists live there and are creating their cities from their opinions themselves... Since the 1930's , new elements in art have been but without destroying the cultural in their area. The problem is the government and the use for tourism. They have been destroying the culture since the 1960s. Bali is Hindu villages, so it's different for them to make a move in politics. But nowadays, because of vice-president Megawati, a moderate from Bali, Bali is now more interested in politics. That's good news I think.

HUO
Last time we spoke in Copenhagen at the Louisiana Museum, you mentioned that in Indonesia there is a sort of blur between exhibitions, festivals and cinema.... You were preparing an event with projections in a countryside village, a mixed performance festival and cinema festival. Can you tell me more specifiacally about this project, and also more about these artist-organized festivals which are also very politicized events? Is this specific to Indonesia ?

HD
When we tried to organize events with the authority, there was always political intervention from the Suharto regime ; every event was controlled and censured by the government.

HUO
Like in Singapore. The government is so afraid of public performances that every performance artist needs to have permission.

HD
Basically yes, but it's difficult to compare Singapore with Indonesia, because Indonesia is an island. If artists make an exhibition in a capital city like Jakarta, it's easy for the government to control us -- we need eleven stamps from different offices.

HUO
This was under the old government ; this will change now...

HD
Yes, with the new president. Artists often organize events far from the city and create new communities of people interested in art. We call this " pocket cultures ". In one city there are many pocket cultures, alternative spaces/events organized by artists. For example, we organize some painters to make a performance (music, dance or theater), and people who work in the theatre exhibit painting and sculpture. Since 1995, people are conscious about the change in the art profession. For example, my base is as a painter, but I make installations and performances, then, they don't know how to categorize me ; art critics are conscious of this.

HUO
You multiply identities.

HD
Yes. I also organize other artists like this. We organize in rice fields without asking permission from the government. When the police come, we just say it's a rehearsal. Now this a big event, with seventy to one hundred artists participating, without any official paperwork. After two days, perhaps the government is informed by newspapers or magazines, but when the police come again and protest, saying " this is not a rehearsal, this is a performance and exhibition ", we say " but it's already happened , it's over ".

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